The Russia Journal: Let's begin with the competition between Yury Luzhkov and Sergei Kiriyenko for the post of Moscow mayor. Do you agree that, the way Luzhkov talks about Kiriyenko, he sees him as a weak opponent?

Dmitry Rogozin: I wouldn't say it's quite like that. He [Luzhkov] says he thanks the Almighty for sending him such a weak opponent. I would just point out that, for a start, it's traditionally the Muslims who thank the Almighty, whereas Orthodox Christians would be more likely to thank the Lord, God. Also, there is some danger involved. One shouldn't forget that God is merciful and, instead of the weak opponent you've thanked him for, you could well find yourself facing a strong opponent instead.

RJ: Who could be a strong challenger for Luzhkov?

DR: I don't know yet. Probably someone who knows Moscow, someone who knows the city's problems and economy. There are such people out there; it simply can't be that a city of 10 million can't come up with suitable candidates. So, I think it's a dangerous thing to underestimate your opponents, and I hope that Luzhkov realizes he could find himself facing some serious competition.

RJ: But not from Kiriyenko?

DR: I don't know, but I wouldn't underestimate Kiriyenko. He is a former prime minister and has plenty of information at his disposal; he was prime minister for almost half a year. I'm not one of Kiriyenko's supporters, but when he says that to get anything done in Moscow you need to pay bribes, and the mayor turns around and says that's an attempt to discredit him and is plain absurd, it makes me think it would be good to ask businessmen themselves how true these allegations are. If the only response you get is a wily smile and silence, then the answer is clear.

RJ: How united is Luzhkov's entourage? Are they all the same kind of people? Are there overzealous individuals among them?

DR: You could compare it to a court, a real court complete with favorites, servants, lackeys and sycophants.

RJ: What place does KRO hold in this court?

DR: Well, I just announced KRO's decision to leave Otechestvo (Fatherland).

RJ: Why?

DR: For two political reasons. But before that, I want to say that I have it good. I'm a member of the political council, I'm close to the emperor himself, everything's fine. But our executive committee raised two, linked questions. First, the ever-closer relations between Otechestvo and Vsya Rossiya (All Russia), which, in my opinion, is a bunch of separatists. Leaders of the national republics like Aushev [Ruslan, president of Ingushetiya, which borders on Chechnya] know full well who is responsible for abducting people and how difficult it is to keep the borders safe, but instead of dealing with these issues, Aushev is busy building himself a new capital. It's easy to get fed up with this attitude; I think it's a real threat to this country's security. If we allow discrimination on the basis of ethnic origin to become legal in this country, then we'll find ourselves heading toward war. What happened in Yugoslavia is a warning to us. We've had enough problems as it is. It would make no sense to unite with the very people whose ideas we are fighting. That is why we could not accept what is happening.

The second issue is the decision to bump up the mayoral elections. It's clear that, for Luzhkov, the mayoral elections have become even more important with the presidential elections next year. But it means he is breaking another agreement; he won't be heading the federal list for Otechestvo in the Duma elections. Who will head the list? Someone we don't know or want? That is why, although we tried to meet with Luzhkov and get some explanation, we decided we had to call a congress, take a stand and work out our approach to the elections - whether we go it alone or as part of Otechestvo. Probably, we'll go it alone.

RJ: Alone or with someone else?

DR: We would be alone.

RJ: Who could be a partner for KRO? Perhaps NDR (Our Home is Russia), or Yabloko?

DR: An alliance with Yabloko is highly unlikely; it's a very pro-Western party. As for NDR, I don't know yet. They're still going through a process of reform, trying to work out their identity. It's already improving their image, but it's too early yet to say that they're now clear about where they stand. That's something that will have to be the subject of further discussion.

RJ: How do you see NDR without Viktor Chernomyrdin?

DR: I don't know, maybe a bit like a young wife who's left her husband. It's too soon for us to be thinking about getting remarried, but at the same time, we're looking around. Any new union, though, would have to meet our conditions. We would want a federal list led by a "troika" that would include a representative of KRO. We would want to be among the founders of any electoral bloc we participate in, and the fundamental principles of our program would have to be incorporated into the election campaign platform. The principles I mean are defending the interests of the Russian people, who are the backbone of this nation, ensuring peace between the different ethnic groups and making reforms to the state that would end the system of giving particular nationalities special status. We would demand that Chechnya be excluded from the Russian Federation.

RJ: Could Otechestvo collapse before the parliamentary elections when Luzhkov announces his decision to run for mayor rather than heading the federal list?

DR: No, it's not so easy to say that it could just fall apart. All I can predict is what Otechestvo will say when Luzhkov makes his announcement. First, they'll say they can see the Kremlin's hand at work. Then, they'll say it's all very unexpected, though I informed Luzhkov on more than one occasion of my position--at the meeting of the political council on May 19, for example. Finally, they'll say that there's nothing so terrible in Luzhkov's decision, that they'll get over the blow, that the organization is a democratic one where different opinions can be expressed and respected. But I would just say right now that it's all absurd.

RJ: There's freedom of opinion, but at the same time, you'd better have your rental documents ready?

DR: Yes, that's right.

RJ: But who, besides Luzhkov could head Otechestvo?

DR: The question doesn't arise with Otechestvo; Luzhkov isn't planning on leaving Otechestvo. The federal list is something different. Maybe Oleg Morozov [leader of the Russian regions movement] could become the leader; that would be the best option. The worst option would be [Tatarstan President Mintimer] Shaimiev.

RJ: Why the worst?

DR: Because he is the man responsible for the situation in Tatarstan, where 40 percent of the Russian population are subject to ethnic cleansing. The only Russian in the regional power hierarchy there was Likhachev, who was such a mild-mannered, obedient, non-confrontational sort, and they got rid of him too. Now there are only Tatars in the regional government. I myself have plenty of Tatar friends who condemn these policies.

RJ: What don't they like about them?

DR: It's a policy of persecution.

RJ: There's something similar between Luzhkov and Shaimiev -- why would Shaimiev give up being a regional ruler for this mythical job of faction leader in the Duma?

DR: I wasn't talking about the Duma faction, but about the federal list.

RJ: So it would be the old cunning trick again -- Shaimiev would head the list but not be in the Duma?

DR: That's right. He won't enter the Duma. I can predict right now that Oleg Morozov will head the Duma faction.

RJ: Coming back to Luzhkov, many already see him as future president of Russia, which makes people in the west interested in him, too. What economic contribution do you think Luzhkov could make if he were president?

DR: He would not be president, he would be the mayor of Russia.

RJ: But what would that mean for the economy? State capitalism?

DR: The economy always depends on the approach taken by the state, which decides what aspects to nurture and what to curb. If the state fosters healthy competition while keeping strategic control over certain sectors, that's an understandable approach. You can also just give free rein to market forces and see who survives; that's the liberal approach. Then, a third option is to set up a monopolistic system right down to the lowest level. That is, the authorities decide that one company and not another is to supply light bulbs for every building entrance throughout the entire country.

RJ: Rumor has it that some in Luzhkov's entourage have mafia connections. Does this mean that were he to become president, these connections would then get a chance to develop?

DR: Of course.

RJ: Right throughout the country?

DR: You're answering your own question.

RJ: What about the chances of Luzhkov and Yevgeny Primakov working together? Luzhkov has expressed his interest in this idea, is he insincere, or could the two of them really "share the same den?"

DR: As my old friend Alexander Lebed said, "Birds of a feather cannot live together."

RJ: So there's no chance of their forming an alliance?

DR: I have a good opinion of Primakov and I think he's sufficiently astute not to get drawn into the Duma elections. I'm not talking about a potential alliance with Luzhkov or anything else that could arise as a result of his future plans. He could have a political future, even if he is almost seventy now. He's the most promising candidate, in fact. But that is all the more reason for him not to link himself to any one organization now.

RJ: If Primakov were to stand for the presidential elections in 2000, would KRO back him?

DR: I would, but I can't speak for KRO; the movement would have to make a decision. It's the same situation as with Otechestvo. I personally would have stayed in Otechestvo, but KRO cannot and I have to go with what the majority decides.

RJ: Isn't that insincerity?

DR: No, it just the way things should be, and I will encourage this system in the future, too. If everyone else in the movement supports a decision, the president has to bow to that decision too. Quarrels should not be allowed to grow into outright conflict.

RJ: But why do you say you would have stayed in Otechestvo? Do you see it as a different kind of force?

DR: I could have stayed on because I had a comfortable niche there. As a member of the political council, I'd have a good chance of being on the federal list and getting into the Duma. I wouldn't even have to stand in a single-member electorate like Voronezh, where there's the whole political battle to go through. So, if it weren't for such things as principles, organization and convictions, both personal and political, I could have stayed on there.

RJ: Do you think that the west would support Luzhkov, stake their money on him? Wouldn't it be dangerous?

DR: I don't know, I've never invested anything in him except six months of my life.

RJ: But with Luzhkov as president, would it be worth investing in the economy? Would we have a stable and reliably-functioning economy?

DR: We have this national pastime that's called standing on a rake. It's simple, you stand on the same rake over and over again so the handle flies up in your face. I suggest everyone try it.